{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/416sx65s50/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Sunil Gulab"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/255/original/Aviary_TRL_Header.png?1704389184","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2024-05-21"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["TheirStory"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["MPEG-4"]}}],"provider":[{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Through A Rainbow Lens"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Through A Rainbow Lens"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/255/original/Aviary_TRL_Header.png?1704389184","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/241/765/small/open-uri20240522-3292061-r8gaxh_1716372467.jpg?1716358070","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - open-uri20240522-3292061-r8gaxh.mp4"]},"duration":4360.93867,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/241/765/small/open-uri20240522-3292061-r8gaxh_1716372467.jpg?1716358070","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-unitedlynnpride.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/241/765/original/open-uri20240522-3292061-r8gaxh.mp4?1716358019","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":4360.93867,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["TheirStory Transcript (Paragraphs with Speakers) [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAndrew Darien:\u003c/strong\u003e Today's date is March 21st, 2024. My name is Andrew Darion. I'm a professor of history at Salem State University, and I'm conducting this interview as part of the Mass Humanities funded project \"Through a Rainbow Lens a reflection on Lens: A Reflection on LGBTQ plus history.\" I have the honor of being joined today by Sunil Gulab, an artist, environmental scientist and community organizer who's been a resident of Lynn since 2003. And I just wanted to start by confirming that I have your permission to record this conversation. Yes. You","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=0.23,37.67"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSunil Gulab:\u003c/strong\u003e do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=37.67,38.15"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAndrew Darien:\u003c/strong\u003e Terrific. So you were originally born in Harare, Zimbabwe. Uh, and then I believe grew up in Chivhu. Can you tell me a little bit about the community you grew up in and who was there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=38.72,53.33"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSunil Gulab:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes. So I don't remember much about Harare. I was born there, but I left when I was a year and a half. But my parents moved to a small, sleepy town in the middle of the country called Chivhu, that I do remember, and I still consider that home. Um, so I grew up in an ethnically Indian family. Uh, there are probably a few hundred thousand ethnically Indian people in Zimbabwe, so part of a minority again. Um, however, growing up in Chivhu was wonderful. Um, growing up as a child, we were always surrounded by, uh, family, friends. Um, there was apartheid back then. So, uh, my colleagues or the kids I would play with were mostly ethnically Indian. However, there were others as well. Um, but growing up in apartheid as a whole other talk show, um, I, I still loved my childhood. Um, I don't it was more positive than anything. Um, I was a very spoiled kid. My parents, uh, grew up dirt poor. So as a result of that, they were successful. But they gave their kids everything, so I was a rotten kid. I can actually remember some of the things I did, some of the things I said. I think my parents went, uh, too far in not disciplining me. So I was the kid you didn't want to be around. Um, however, that changed very quickly when I went to boarding school, and I went to boarding school when I was seven. And I think I out of fear because at boarding school there was corporal punishment. So if you did anything wrong, you would be beaten for it. Um, not that I was beaten a lot. I think I straightened out right away. Um, so thank goodness for boarding school. I'm not saying I'm a support corporal punishment, but I don't think I'm that spoiled kid anymore.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=53.42,180.2"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAndrew Darien:\u003c/strong\u003e And very briefly, uh, if you don't mind, can you tell me a little bit about how ethnic Indians fit into the racial hierarchy at that time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=180.98,190.1"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSunil Gulab:\u003c/strong\u003e Uh, with the apartheid, it all had to do with the color of your skin. So Zimbabwe became independent in 1980. So prior to that, um, so I was seven when it became independent. I know that my parents weren't the top of the totem pole. They were in the middle. Um, so it's very unfortunate. Um, they were never really, uh, part of mainstream. They were there was severe discrimination towards my parents generation and my grandparents generation. Having said that, the local black population had even more discrimination. So there's, like, if you were native black African, you were on the bottom of everything. Uh, basically educated and trained to be workers. So, you know, people who worked on farms. Uh, people who worked in households, but not doctors and lawyers and and all of that or even managers were not black. It was just the workforce. So they would go as far as maybe the seventh grade. And I think there were maybe two high schools in the entire country for black kids. Um, for Indian and mixed. Um, there were also two high schools in the entire country, but my parents couldn't go past that. They couldn't go to the university, which was for whites only. And if you are a white kid. So my hometown had a perfectly good, um, primary school, which I wasn't allowed to go to because I was not white. So there are lots of these disadvantages. Another example would be, um, my dad would always say. That it was very difficult for him to get a loan from the bank, um, because he was not white and the white people, it was very easy for them. Uh, the police force, for example, this is going back to my grandparents time would not, um, come to the home of someone who was not white. So the police force were only for white people. And I'm sure there were exceptions here and there. I'm painting with a broad brush, but all of the conveniences, the services were for white people. So basically a country of let's say 8 million people, uh, would work to serve 200,000 white people. So a lot of people will say, oh, well, you know, back in Rhodesia, it was called Rhodesia back then, uh, you know, everything worked. And, you know, there was less corruption. And, you know, the roads were repaired on time and, you know, the water was always flowing and this was working, that was working. And now it's not. So I'm not saying it's better now because things are quite bad. However, when you look at Rhodesia, it was serving 200,000 people. So there was this huge workforce that was underpaid, you know, very, very poor. But all of their cheap labor went to service, you know, a couple of hundred thousand white people. And of course, it's going to be easy and cheaper. And yeah, there will be more money to do things if it's serving such a small group of people and neglecting the rest. So, so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=190.64,391.05"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAndrew Darien:\u003c/strong\u003e And as a child, did you play with black or white children?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=391.62,395.31"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSunil Gulab:\u003c/strong\u003e I played with black kids. Um, in fact, still now some of my best friends are black now adults. But, you know, uh, best friends growing up, however, you know. So this is the thing about apartheid. I can remember, uh, kids will play with each other, you know, from when the newborn until age two, three, four, whatever. Without a care in the world. I can remember when I was four and five being told by older kids, don't play with the black kids. You're not black. They're not. They lower than you are, you know, play with, uh, Indian kids. And the same thing would be said to me, uh, or I was made to feel that way, that I wasn't good enough to play with white kids. So at some point, I did play with white kids, but I was abandoned by them by that same age and the same thing I was doing to, you know, black kids. But it was because not only the adults, but the older kids were teaching us at some point, I think around age 4 or 5 that, you know, they they're not you're different from them. Or so I was taught, to discriminate against black people. I wasn't taught to discriminate against white people. Um, and in all honesty, not that that was an option. It wasn't. But I don't think an Indian older kid would tell me, don't play with that white kid. But they would say, don't play with the black kid. And the same is true for white kids. They would be told at a certain age not to play with others because they're not good enough for, you know, they're not at your level.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=395.52,488.73"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAndrew Darien:\u003c/strong\u003e Did you ever question that, or was it just something you I questioned it now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=489.27,494.49"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSunil Gulab:\u003c/strong\u003e Um, back then. Yes, actually we did. I can remember saying to my grandmother why, you know, we've been playing with them for years, but, you know, everyone looks up to adults. And sure enough, I mean, I'm not saying I was a trailblazer. Sure enough, I don't know that I ever, uh, looked down on, uh, some of my black friends, but I remember stopping playing with them because I was told to.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=494.82,520.289"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAndrew Darien:\u003c/strong\u003e And what was the racial makeup of your boarding school?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=521.73,525.36"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSunil Gulab:\u003c/strong\u003e My boarding school. Um, so I went to boarding school from age, I think seven, uh, and I went to many schools. So the primary school, the racial makeup of the boarding school was probably the first one, um, 80% black, maybe even maybe a little more, let's say 85% black. However, in the hostels, because we stayed over as a boarding, uh, student, uh, it was all black and I think there were maybe five of five Indian kids, which was, um, my group of friends, my neighbors from the town I was in. There were no white kids staying over in the boarding school. However, in high school, uh, it was about 50, over 50, 50% white, 50% black, let's say 48 and 48 and maybe 4% mixed in Asian. So out of 1000 kids, there were maybe 25 or 30, uh, mixed and Asian, and so 48% black and 48% white.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=525.39,593.7"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAndrew Darien:\u003c/strong\u003e And, uh, what? Did you have any siblings? Yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=594.21,598.17"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSunil Gulab:\u003c/strong\u003e a brother. And many cousins. So we all went to the same. So of those 20 something, uh, mixed and Asian kids, uh, half of them were my cousins. Mhm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=598.17,609.59"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAndrew Darien:\u003c/strong\u003e So you described yourself as a bit of a brat. Uh, how do you think your parents would have described? You described, you say at age ten, after a few years of seasoning and boarding school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=610.25,625.55"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSunil Gulab:\u003c/strong\u003e I think I matured very, very quickly. I became very responsible actually, after that boarding school started at seven. It didn't take three years. It was a matter of months. Um, yeah. Uh, yeah. I never asked them that question, but, um, like, yeah, I think I became very responsible way ahead of my peers. Um, so when I came to the US, I was 18. I was already, you know, an adult before my before I should have been. But, you know, like, monetarily responsible, you know, academically responsible. I, I was one of those kids that never got into trouble. Um, and, you know, I can remember when did I get into trouble with my parents? Never. I actually, you see and hear of, you know, kids sneaking out and doing this and parents find out after, or they have to go and pick them up at the police station. And I'm nothing. Zero. There was never any issue that I created for my parents growing up.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=625.73,693.14"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAndrew Darien:\u003c/strong\u003e Was your family very religious?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=693.35,695.66"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSunil Gulab:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes. And I was too. Um, however. So I'm not anymore. I'm more spiritual than religious. I do have an issue with organized religion. Um, but I can remember myself being religious, so I grew up Hindu. Um, however, a lot of Hindus and Hinduism in general, uh, there, there's a lot of the culture mixed in. Um, there's no real central authority in Hinduism that could be a good thing, could be a bad thing. But a lot of Hindus don't know why they do certain things. So if I ask my mom or dad, you know, there's this ceremony, and in the ceremony we use a coconut and we use this and fire and some of the things why? And they don't know. And no one asks the preacher or the priest why everyone just does it. So it's like a, you know, we did it because my parents did it. They did it because their parents did it. There's a lot of that. Um, so also, you know, a lot of like our hymns, they're in other languages and which I don't speak, but I can sing the, the hymns. Um. And what am I saying? I have no idea. You know, I know the words, but I don't know what they mean. So a lot of it, the reason why I'm not religious anymore is because of that. Um, and also what I find is, I mean, I've studied other religions too. I don't agree with everything on any religion. I think the closest I, I come to align myself with is Buddhism, because a lot of what they believe are Buddhist beliefs make sense. But Buddhism may not even be considered a religion, more like a way of life. And when you look at, you know what Buddhists believe, you'll find some of that in every religion. So I grabbed the best that I find that I, you know, aligns with what I believe, and I leave the rest, you know, I, you know, don't ask me to explain or original sin makes no sense to me, you know. And you know, some things are not defendable. I wouldn't even ask somebody to defend original sin because it doesn't hold up in our courts of law. You know, why does, um, you know, someone from the three, uh, monotheistic religions believe in original sin when you can't defend it? I can't answer that, but I can't believe it, so I won't subscribe to those religions. However, there's a lot that they believe in that is good, and I'll grab that and run with that. I don't have to take everything.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=696.44,857.24"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAndrew Darien:\u003c/strong\u003e What do you think are the most important values are that you learned from your parents?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=857.51,863.54"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSunil Gulab:\u003c/strong\u003e So my parents are very loving, very hard workers, uh, very persistent. Uh, yeah, I take that with them. Um, also, I know that their struggles were great, you know, going against the flow, going upstream. Uh, they were able to accomplish everything they did with all of the inconvenience or inefficiencies or everything that was unfair in apartheid. They got to where they were despite of all of that. And, you know, a lot of people. Bull will say, well, you know, I don't see people who look like me at this level of whatever. And I'm like, yeah, I see that too. But you know what? I'm going to get there because there's no one who looks like me. A lot of people will say, well, when kids look and they see only people of a certain race at the upper echelon, they think, oh, I'll never make it there. That's the exact opposite. That's my inspiration. Like, I'm going to get there because there's no one who looks like me. Yeah, I think I get that from my parents.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=864.26,933.18"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAndrew Darien:\u003c/strong\u003e And shifting topics a little bit. Um, do you remember your first crush?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=933.96,940.2"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSunil Gulab:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes I do. Um, so I was five. I might have even been four. So at that time, you know, no one knows. I didn't know what it was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=940.23,950.97"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSPEAKER_S3:\u003c/strong\u003e Um.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=952.05,952.65"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSunil Gulab:\u003c/strong\u003e So not giving out any names, um, and, you know, everyone says, oh, it's puppy love, and the feeling is the same. Um, I can remember it. So it was on a on a on a boy. He was probably, I would say 10 or 11, and I was 4 or 5. Um, and he was in my first school, and I couldn't figure out why. It was always more fun when, whenever we were playing games, it was always more fun when he was on my team or I was on his team. At that time, I was the smallest kid in the entire school, uh, physically. Um, and very, you know, was like prime, prime, um, pickings for the class bully. The smallest kid in the class who's not white. I was also my brother and I were the first two brown kids to enter the school, so that also made us prime pickings, you know, um, and I can remember walking into the school and being stared at from both angles, you know, with just white kids looking. And the country had just become independent thinking, you know, what has this school come to? You know that now, too. These brown kids are coming in. And sure enough, you know, the next year, uh, parents are pulling their kids out of school and actually sending them to school in South Africa because they were brown kids in the school. So, you know, as a five year old, you kind of don't know what that means. But, I mean, we weren't totally shielded from it. But, um, the one who stopped the bully was this kid. Um, and he was like the biggest kid in the school, and he actually saw the bully come. He was in, like, the third grade, and I think it was my brother started yelling at my brother. You know, I'm watching you. And, you know, don't you step out of line or whatever, and, you know, I'll beat you up and all. And he came and he picked the bully up, you know, he was much bigger. Um, and the bully started crying, and he never did anything after that. So after that, it was like, not smooth sailing. But there was it wasn't this fear of, oh my gosh, I'm going to get to school today and this bully is going to come in, you know, give us a hard time. That happened for one day. And the bigger guy is the one I developed the crush on. But um, yeah, I was four. Didn't know what it meant, but, you know, the butterflies was the same. All of that was the same because when it happened later on, it's the same feeling. Just as a kid, it's, I guess you call it puppy love or whatever. You don't know what it is.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=953.67,1112.13"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAndrew Darien:\u003c/strong\u003e Uh, surely you must have observed some of the cultural and gender norms. Was there any ever, any point where you were wondering why you specifically had a crush on a boy?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=1112.7,1125.54"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSunil Gulab:\u003c/strong\u003e Not at that age? Um, I because I didn't know what it was. It just felt good. Um, and, you know, there's no need to act at that. Act on it. It. I guess I just as associated it with being a friend that I really liked to be around. I'm only looking back once I knew what that was, which was probably, you know, in my teenage years. And then I can look back and say, when, when else did I feel that? And the feeling was the same? Um, just I knew more, uh, you know, when I was older and I didn't even act on it when I was a teenager, I think I was conditioned to believe that, you know, that was wrong. And so I didn't act on it, I felt it. You can control what you feel, but you can control if you do something about it or not. And I didn't, just because I was conditioned to believe that there was something wrong with that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=1126.32,1193.64"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAndrew Darien:\u003c/strong\u003e And how old were you when you finally felt like you could act on it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=1194.06,1198.53"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSunil Gulab:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, gosh. Well, that's that's a whole other hour. Um, I was 30 when I was totally comfortable with who I was, who I am. Um, and, uh, I was a late bloomer, so I had not kissed anyone until I was 24. And that was a man. Um, yeah. So between 24 and 30, it was a big struggle because I would still tell you in the middle of it. Yeah. I don't think I'm gay. Yeah. Did","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=1199.3,1232.54"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAndrew Darien:\u003c/strong\u003e you ever date women?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=1232.54,1234.79"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSunil Gulab:\u003c/strong\u003e The opportunities were there. But no, I did not. Yeah, I did not.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=1235.51,1242.02"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAndrew Darien:\u003c/strong\u003e Uh, were you ever compelled or asked by family or friends before the age of 30 to talk about your sexuality?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=1242.32,1252.61"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSunil Gulab:\u003c/strong\u003e No, but I was asked if I was ready to get married or if I had met a woman. Um, yeah. A bunch of times.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=1252.64,1260.08"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAndrew Darien:\u003c/strong\u003e How did that make you feel to be asked that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=1260.47,1263.02"},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/transcript/67086/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSunil Gulab:\u003c/strong\u003e Uh, horrible. Well, not horrible is not the word. Um, I didn't like it. And fortunately or unfortunately. So. I've been in school forever, and that was my excuse, because I went from my undergrad to grad school and again to grad school. So my excuse for the longest time was, I'm not even done with school yet, you know? So yeah, let's delay it for until I graduate and after I was 30. So the timeline for ethnically Indian kids is like 28, 29 kids get married off. And the idea that I wasn't kind of portrays that I'm the undesirable, I'm the leftover. You know, I can't get married because everyone else who wants to get married gets married by 28, 29, 30, and it's changing. So now it's, you know, probably in the early 30s, but, uh, nobody's in the in their 40s and not married unless they're, you know, alcoholic or something bad, a bad trait about them. And no one wants, no, no one wants to get married to them. Uh, in my case, I'm sure that was a big concern for my parents. Uh, I was pushing it off, pushing it off, and I kind of. I would yell at my parents. So to stop them from asking, because every time I'd go home, they'd ask and I'd yell at them, and then they would stop asking. Um, I actually only came out to my parents, um, seven years ago now. Um, so I'm 50. So when I was like 43, 44. Um, and they now live with me, um, but I, I don't know that I chickened out. I tried for many years to tell them, and I couldn't tell them while they I couldn't tell them over the phone, number one, I couldn't tell them, uh, without them knowing where I live and how I live. Because in their mind, I would be in danger daily. Like, oh my gosh, everyone. Because in Zimbabwe, I don't know that there are any openly gay people because they would be targets. There are plenty of gay people, but they've got to hide. And you know, it's one of those it's not as bad as Uganda, but it's pretty close. I don't know what what the laws are. If someone's caught or, you know, they go to court and get jailed, I think there is jail time. I don't know that it's enforced. But, um, so growing up with them, knowing those laws, if they knew about them, their fear would be that I'm living in fear, which is so not true. Um, my life is as ordinary as any. You know, I don't live in fear. I in the 20 years that I've lived in Lynn, I've never seen it, never mind experienced it. Um, so I wanted them to see how I live. And I did it that way. When they came to visit me, I came out to them. Then. Um, in all honesty, I don't know that they totally understand it. Uh, they've met my closest friends. A lot of them are gay, and they love them. You know, they also are very live, a very normal, ordinary life. And not all of my friends are gay. Um, so they've met some straight friends, and I don't see my parents discriminating between them. Um, however, they are old school. I get that it took me 30 years to be comfortable with it myself. I can't really expect them, you know, to be totally comfortable with it in a few years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765#t=1263.08,1487.09"}]},{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/index/83658","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Sunil Gulab Index [Index]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://througharainbowlens.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2385/collection_resources/128973/file/241765/index/83658/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Racial Politics of Apartheid 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